A Q&A with motivation researcher Ayelet Fishbach, author of “Get It Done”

How can you get stuff done and feel right doing it?

In this Q&A, I’ll share insights from Ayelet Fishbach, a professor of behavioural science and marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, and her book Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation. The book is dense, packed with real-life examples and ideas from Fishbach’s own research, and decades of motivation science. (Do you remember her research with Kaitlin Woolley on embracing discomfort in theatre improv, which I mentioned in this post?)

After reading Get It Done, you might not remember what the “goal gradient effect” and “equifinal means” are, but hopefully you’ll understand yourself better and have fresh tools to move towards your goals with more ease.

(Interview edited for brevity and clarity.)

You write in Get It Done that “intrinsic motivation is the least understood concept in motivation science.” Why is that?

Well, for historical reasons, and just because it's a difficult concept. 

We, as a field, started the study of intrinsic motivation with animal research in the 50s, realising that rats will explore a maze even when they don't expect any food rewards: they're just curious. And for a long time, that created a confusion by which intrinsic motivation meant being curious.

Another source of confusion is that we often distinguish between motivations that someone is born with, that are internal; and motivations that are internalised, that we learn through our childhood, through growing up in a society. [For example] people learn to pursue money. But relational goals, wanting to connect to other people, this is not something that humans need to learn. So this is the history, and what intrinsic motivation is not. 

What it is is pursuing something as an end in itself: the value that you get is from doing, as opposed to doing something and then getting a reward later. Whatever you do can be intrinsically motivating if it feels right, if it's something that you are motivated to do for the sake of it. It doesn't mean that it's good for you! Eating ice cream can be intrinsically motivating, and it might not be good for you.

How do we get ourselves to be more intrinsically motivated?

You start with a goal and choose the path that is more intrinsically motivating. [For example, if your goal is to exercise,] you find exercise that you enjoy doing, that is fun, with people that you like. It might change, after some time you might need to switch to something that is new and exciting. 

Another strategy is to bring some intrinsic incentives to the task: A student that is doing her homework might find that it's better for her to do it with music playing in the background. 

The third way is to focus on intrinsic motivation that is already there. This is really just a framing, a mental focus. We found that when we ask people to choose carrots that look the yummiest, they ate more carrots than when we asked them to choose the carrots that look the healthiest.

So it's about looking for fun?

Yes, and also other positive emotions. [I spoke with an] ER physician who said being in the emergency room is very intrinsically motivating for them. [It’s not fun], but it feels right, it feels like this is the place where life and death are being determined, where they could make a difference. When I'm in that place, I'm totally in it. I'm in the flow, I feel I'm doing the right thing for me. Often it's fun, but also just feels right, absorbing.

Does reframing work if we know we’re doing it? Can we ‘trick’ ourselves?

We can totally influence ourselves. Maybe for some biases, you might not be able to change the way you see things when you actively know that this is what you're trying to do. But when I know I bring music to an activity that I'm doing so that it's more intrinsically motivating, no problem. When I try to focus on what I enjoy about the experience, to be in the moment, I can do this, even though I'm aware of doing it.

One of my favorite parts of the book was the last chapter, on how goals make happy relationships. 

What relationship researchers and motivation researchers discovered over the last decade or so, is that we often study the same phenomenon from two different [viewpoints]. Basically, we are drawn closer to people who support our goals and we move away from people who do not support our goals. On a very basic level, we make social connections because we are looking for people that will help us achieve things in life. 

The best example is probably for kids going to college: often what predicts academic achievement is how much their parents provide support—not financial support necessarily, but the idea that they believe in me, they want me to be successful, and they think that I can be successful. If you have a parent that does not support their child's pursuit, this is where you see families [or other relationships] that grow apart.

That means the people around us need to know about our goals. I remember in my teens or early 20s, I often kept my dreams to myself, or waited until a plan felt perfect before telling anyone. Letting people into our goals is what creates the bond as well.

I love your story, because I think that we were all there at one point. And the reason that we don't tell people about our goals is that we think that they might not be supportive, right? We think that maybe they will be critical. We need to tell someone about our goals because we need social support to stay motivated. I don't say: Tell everyone always about your goals, because maybe we have the correct insight and they will not be supportive. But if they don't know, then we have no chance of support.

💭 Aha moment 

A thought experiment from Get It Done’s Chapter 14:

“Choose a friend, a sibling, or a romantic partner, and think how you'd answer these three questions:

1. How well do you know this person’s goals and aspirations?

2. How well does this person know your goals and aspirations?

3. How satisfied are you with your relationship with this person?

My experiments with Juliana Schroeder revealed that the answers to questions 1 and 2 separately predict the answers to question 3. [...] 

We should all be more modest in how much knowledge we assume exists in any relationship and pay special attention to knowing the people in our lives to be able to support their goals and maintain close relationships.”

What are the risks of using rewards and punishments to reach a particular goal? 

It's complicated because you need a reason to engage in something, but you don't need too many incentives. [Past] research on overjustification made the point that when you give kids rewards for drawing, they will not want to draw once the incentive is removed.

You want to have justification, just not overjustification. The difference is often subtle. [Does the incentive fit the activity,] or is it an overjustification that takes away from my enjoyment?

How does your research help you in your daily life?

My research suggests that you need to look at: goal setting; monitoring progress toward the goal; your other goals and how what you're trying to do fits with everything else in your life; and social support. They're four necessary elements.

Writing my book was a new challenge; I wrote 100 empirical papers before sitting down to write it. [So I thought] about these four elements: What would be a realistic, but challenging and intrinsically motivating goal? How do I monitor progress? And who is there to help me? How do I fit it into my life?

For me, it’s not just about being productive, but doing the thing that makes me happy. Knowing motivation theory helps! It’s easy to apply to yourself.

💎 More Get It Done nuggets 

On setting goals:

“Can you make them feel more exciting by focusing on what you’re trying to achieve, rather than on the means you take to get there?”

On incentives:

“To make sure your incentives don’t backfire, ask yourself what a stranger would infer about your reasons for performing the activity. If the incentives lead this stranger astray and if the reason you perform the activity isn’t crystal clear in your mind at all times, consider revising these incentives.” 

On monitoring progress:

“If you’re a novice, watch the glass as it’s filling up; if you’re an expert, check the glass as it starts to empty.”

On getting over a bruised ego and staying engaged: 

“When you’re just starting something new—whether it’s learning to knit or beginning a new job—try to watch others fail first. Perhaps you can join a knitting class so you can watch other new knitters struggle along with you as you all try to learn the stitches.”

On juggling multiple goals: 

“Consider whether a goal is central to your identity, or whether you see pursuing it as a moral or ethical issue, in which case you should seek to prioritize it.”

On goals and relationships: 

“If you find you’re drifting away from a partner or a friend, finding a new goal you can strive toward together could help deepen your bond.”

If you want even more goodies, check out Ayelet Fishbach’s free, sleek online “tiny course” on the Chicago Booth website.

And for more of Tania’s weekly insights into the world of intrinsic motivation, sign up for Why Would Anyone on Substack.

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Tania Rabesandratana

Science Journalist & Attuned Writer Fellow 2021